Banned!

[XtremeTornado]

I'm guessing i've got this in the right part of forum here.

This can be taken one of two ways most likely the wrong way because nowadays on these forums we have to have a colour to actually express our opinions without being banned or having threads closed. (Even that right there will probably get me banned or result in this thread being closed).

I admit I haven't been writing on these forums for long but I can see how much they have has gone downhill because of people being a little "over-cautious".

Now i'm all for cracking down on bullies whether it'd be verbal or physical ones either way it is wrong to do such things but i'm going to go out on a limb here without knowing all details but to ban people for expressing their opinions on the way these forums are being run and not for personal attacks on people is a little trigger-happy on the ban gun.

I know if there's any replys to this it'll be "oh they got banned for personally attacking people in a thread about "people they hate" in this forum".... well you'll see my reply to that if it's allowed to get that far, I may need a colour first. It'll also include non-aggressive words or expletives.

As for hacking well, I couldn't really give a damn. If people can't play a game without resulting in "breaking" a game for what I now see as (after collecting 1700+ of them) worthless trophies then maybe they need to look into a mirror and ask themselves "is this what my life has become?". Now we've had people and certain mods state they have "hacked"/"glitched" a game and fine if they have then they have, i'm not asking them to step down from their roles on this site or to castrate themselves (what???.... no-ones come up with that idea?) all i'm saying is that they've admitted what they've done was wrong and IN THE NAME OF THE XT SHOULD BE DOOMED TO A LIFE IN HELL MUAHAHAHAHA.... *ahem* back to the topic in hand, in all seriousness if they've done it vowed never to do it again then fine but if it keeps happening and these people aren't being banned from the site or turned over to sony then some people have serious moral issues.

And another thing, reporting them to sony has nothing whatsoever to do with trophies, for anyone complaining about "oh being reported for hacking trophies, you gUyS R FuCkIn rEtArDs, I aM TeH hAxXoR" or whatever shit they spew, it's about changing a game and breaking the rules and regulation that were set in place so people could enjoy games in different way by collecting trophies. Not for them to change the code of a game and gain visual, non-life changing trophies. Excuse my foul language.

This is just my two penneth on certain matters and if anyone has any problems with that feel free to air them. And remember for anyone who has their head up firmly placed between both rear cheeks, this is a discussion, the clue's in the forum title itself. Thankyou.

[IshTing]

I think after they made the thread they were abusing a Moderator on the ShoutBox (King Ubu I think), this resulted in the ban.

[Jaytech]

who got banned? and why? been busy playing.

[kjkg]

Yeh sometimes people can get a bit quick on the old, banning and shaming. However the only thing i can say to that is that the mods are probably getting alot of people complaining to them in PM. We obviously dont see these, but im guessing sometimes the mods cant ignore it and HAVE to react.
(Only my opinion) the forums recently have been a bit dodgy with people saying very stupid stuff. The mods are probably doing all they can to keep everyone happy.
Tornado, im in no way saying your wrong, just saying what i think of the situation.

[IshTing]

who got banned? and why? been busy playing.

Nagisa
RotaryRex
RD
craigybl2

[XtremeTornado]

Banned for shoutbox abuse, right fine, like i said i'm all for cracking down on bullying but if that was the case why was another thread able to make it onto these forums regarding the matter. I'm glad you guys have read this thread and more opinions are welcome and kjkg, you can say i'm wrong if you want to, i'm not going to start to call you for not agreeing with me as many immature people on here do....

I'm not here to have a go at the mods or anything like that but for them to understand that over-exercising their power on here isn't going to make alot of people come back to the site, for example, well, many a time i've seen plenty of threads closed/deleted because it MAY cause incident, at least let the incident occur 1st before closing or deleting it.

EDIT: Any mod reading this feel free to express your opinion, i'm all ears.

EDIT: Remember I did bring up 2 issues so feel free to express away on both

[IshTing]

What other thread made it on here regarding the matter?

Don't worry no one is going to bash you either for stating your opinions.

But as far as I know, they made threads about the people you hate most on the site, King Ubu closed it, so they abused him on the Shoutbox for a while, they were warned a few times and eventually got banned.

[amplifiedAnt]

This can be taken one of two ways most likely the wrong way because nowadays on these forums we have to have a colour to actually express our opinions without being banned or having threads closed. (Even that right there will probably get me banned or result in this thread being closed).

I admit I haven't been writing on these forums for long but I can see how much they have has gone downhill because of people being a little "over-cautious".



Well it's not quite the right forum section, but I can see what you've tried to do by putting it here.

I actually really resent the part I've quoted and put in bold. I've only been a moderator for two minutes, but I've been posting on message boards/forums since I was 16 (7 years ago now) and have always been a proponent for free speech. If there's unnecessary censorship I'd always call it out, no matter whether I was 'staff' or not.

What people seem to forget is that this isn't a place where you can come and say whatever you like to whoever you like. It's a privately owned site and has to be run by a set of rules that are in iEntry's (and generally the members') best interests. If you don't like that, there are independent sites you can go to.

If we're going into specifics, the thread that sparked this was against the site's rules (whatever its intentions). I'm sure I don't need to quote them, because it makes me sound like a dick and assumes that you can't go find them and read them yourselves. If it had ended at that it would've been fair enough, but some people really had to push it.

Personal, targeted abuse shouldn't be 'tolerated' in any walk of life, but on a message board it's ridiculous. This isn't the place for that - it ought to be where people come for PS3 and trophy news/tips, a general chat and a bit of friendly banter. Staff shouldn't be excepted from the rules of this site in that they should be protected equally as well as any other member would be. When people are repeatedly warned about their conduct and continue on like children, there really is no other option. I wasn't around when the decisions were made, but believe me, they weren't made lightly.

Also I'd like to know how, where and when people have become over-cautious? I've been on this site for a year and a quarter now and aside from people coming and going (as you'd expect), the tone of the forum has barely changed from day one. I'm sorry, but I don't think you've got the whole picture, as you say that you're against bullies; that's exactly what this was, a classic playground bully situation. I'm actually ashamed at how many people got dragged into it, some of those people ought to have a bit of a think about the consequences of their actions. You've clearly not seen all of the related threads either, or I think you'd understand a bit better how ridiculous it was getting. I looked back at the shoutbox archive too... it was pathetic and went on for far too long unabated.

Let me get this straight - HAVING AN OPINION DOES NOT GET YOU BANNED. Spout your opinions, however controversial and see what happens. People may argue against your reasoning or morality, but at no point will you be banned so long as that opinion is legal and doesn't victimise an individual or group of people on the site.

[XtremeTornado]

There was a thread made by Nagisa discussing the matter (which is in the old/closed threads section), maybe the abuse K.U. got was after that but still, the ban should've came when that first thread of "who hates who" was closed.....

Like I said people can say what they want to say, if they "hate" me for it then fine, if they want to bash me then fine, it's their opinion. Even though bashing me has no influence on the situations that have arisen in the past week or so.

[IshTing]

the ban should've came when that first thread of "who hates who" was closed.....

You said the mods seem to trigger happy to ban members.

[amplifiedAnt]

Yes, that's a very contradictory mentality. Why would we do that? People make mistakes, so they get the chance of a reprieve. It's only with repeated and intentional insistence to break the rules that are a ban should or will be issued.

[XtremeTornado]

That's not trigger happy banning if the person/people in question are personally attacking people.

Ant, now you're contradicting yourself, you say that the mods are doing their best to stop things like that from happening but then saying you're going to give people a reprieve.....eh? They're only going to do the same thing.

So what you're saying is it's ok for people to personally attack someone as long as they don't do it again.... talk about a contradictory mentality.

WTF are we arguing for? i'm sticking up for you mods in this situation...... but not in others.

[amplifiedAnt]

So one thread and then *boom* a ban? That's never going to work and WILL cause hostility towards staff.

At no point have I contradicted myself. Stopping 'this kind of thing' was closing the original thread - at that point the situation was dealt with. Unfortunately some individuals decided to take that opportunity to act like children, which was a new situation entirely and dealt with as was necessary.

Your message has completely lost itself somewhere along the way - you started off saying that the staff are being too heavy-handed and then try to put across the view that one misguided thread deserves an instant ban. That has never been policy and never will be.

Maybe you do need to go look at the rules, the procedure for dealing with out-of-hand situations is pretty clearly listed there.

[XtremeTornado]

But i'm not talking about personally attacking someone in my post, christ sake read what i've put first, no wonder people get pissed off on here. All i'm saying is personal attacks, ban them straight away but i've seen other situations where supposedly arguments are brought to end even though i've seen nothing of the sought take for instance the hacking thread (the 2nd one) I saw no instance of personal attacks and when the heat was brought out of it and a discussion was taking place, the thread got closed....

See what I mean, now I can take that as a personal attack on me but i'm not going to... because I see it as your ignorance to the truth, as for my post take a look at your last one and you'll see what I mean. I don't need to look at any rules to see the immoral ways of people, if people got off their high horse once in a while to see that they are still going to do the same things regardless of whether you giving a "warning" or not, doesn't make one bit of difference and therefore a stricter policy should be taken out regarding personal attacks on moderators, administrators or other members of this site.

But if you still have a problem with my opinions then by all means express your own but don't carry on attacking mine, I did say if anyone had a problem with them to clearly state that but to carry it on makes you no better than the ones who have been banned.

[marvotwc]

Firstly, the people in question started the thread as a joke. Most people could see that the thread would have ended badly, however it was intended in the first place, so the staff made the decision to close the thread after trying to put a stop to it by posting in the thread. It was a staff decision but the individual staff member who closed the thread was then being blamed for everything. I don't agree that they should have been banned for creating the thread in the first place.

However, then these individuals started to publicly abuse members of staff in the shoutbox and in other threads. Despite other staff members asking them to stop, they didn't, and other people started to join in. Abuse of other members is against the rules of this forum and they carried on doing it, even after staff told them to stop. That was why they were banned. Expressing your opinion, even if it's an unpopular one, won't get you banned.

[amplifiedAnt]

No wonder staff get pissed off too, you've completely disregarded any attempt I've made to answer your points.

If that's what you're claiming your argument is, you're talking nonsense. Nobody has been banned for anything other than personal attacks and neither will they be. There were very specific instructions circulated between the staff to NOT ban anybody for hacking or being involved in the heated debate, nor to even go so far as tagging them with the "I'm a cheat!" status. Even in the event of personal attacks, people still have a right to a formal warning first - as it says in the site rules.

I have noticed a couple of threads being locked a little hastily in the past few months and will try to address that. The thread you've noted wasn't one of them though. That was supposed to be a news post to inform people of the stance the site was taking, yet people had to drag it back to the same circular arguments that got the original thread closed. A lot of the time it'd probably be easier just to lock announcements from the word go so that that can't happen.

Thing is, this site has its little dramas from time to time and they inevitably blow over. If people are going to act like dicks, the staff can only do their best to alleviate the problems. At the end of the day the intention is purely to make this a friendly, welcoming site to as many people as humanly possible. If judgment calls are coming into scrutiny it makes the task even more difficult, so while opinions are always welcomed, I'm not sure what good kicking off does in this specific situation.

[IshTing]

I didn't know other members started to join in other than the 4 that have been banned.

[XtremeTornado]

Can we please get off of the personal attacking now, I know what they did was wrong but the reason for them doing it was because of what I had stated with the overreaction and the " and no Ant, i'm not "kicking off" as I said i'm just stating my opinion. Come to think of it that is slightly immature of you to state that what I had said was an act of rioting. That is what you meant by "kicking off" wasn't it?

To be honest I don't know why I bother because now i've been made out to be some sort of support for hate abuse when I clearly stated I were against that.

[marvotwc]

It was only 1 person who started the thread, but others others joined in and started to take things too far. It could only have snowballed from there, and apparently others were getting caught up in the situation on the the shoutbox (from what I hear anyway, I wasn't there). That's why things need to be stopped, to pre-empt even worse problems.

Also, the 2nd hacker thread that XtremeTornado mentioned. If you mean the one in site news, then it was closed because it was completely off topic, and closing it was in no way premature. The thread was created to tell people of the issue and the site's stance on the matter. People were then discussing Sony and what they do/don't do which is nothing to do with us as none of us work for Sony. Some others were telling us how to run the site and what we should be doing which, to be fair, is a staff decision and the original post explains what we were going to do.

[andrewp8020]

It has got a little rowdey on here latley, but at least its been interesting. Opinions are great and also a positive as it can only make the site improve in the future. If people have been sending personal messages to staff then thats ridiculas as their is no choice other than to ban them for good.

As long as people have opinions and love getting trophies then their will always be arguments, same goes for any site like this but that aint a bad thing at all

[amplifiedAnt]

Come to think of it that is slightly immature of you to state that what I had said was an act of rioting. That is what you meant by "kicking off" wasn't it?



No.

The stupid thing here is that I'm on your side - I want the site to be the best it can be just the same as you do. That said, go read through your first post and tell me that it doesn't come across as a bit of an attack on the staff, in which case of course I'm going to be a little defensive of decisions made since I agree with them for the most part.

I've seen the whole story both from a member's point of view and as staff and in many years of having inhabited message boards, I've not yet seen a better way to deal with situations like what happened at the weekend. There's a moderator sub-forum where things like this are mulled over in great length in order to decide the best course of action - it isn't decided on a whim!

[marvotwc]

I can understand your point of view XtremeTornado, but you probably aren't seeing the full picture. That's not an attack on you at all, it's just that some things have been removed for obvious reasons, and staff discussions are made in the mod forum, which members can't see. Staff come to a joint decision on how to handle most important matters, it isn't a solo thing based on one person's opinion.

[imahobo]

Can we please get off of the personal attacking now, I know what they did was wrong but the reason for them doing it was because of what I had stated with the overreaction and the " and no Ant, i'm not "kicking off" as I said i'm just stating my opinion. Come to think of it that is slightly immature of you to state that what I had said was an act of rioting. That is what you meant by "kicking off" wasn't it?

To be honest I don't know why I bother because now i've been made out to be some sort of support for hate abuse when I clearly stated I were against that.

i have just read the entire thread and you dont come across like that at all, i wasnt around when all this kicked off but imo it was all handled as it should have been.

you state in one of your posts that the staff sometimes close down threads to quickly incase there is a negative reaction from that thread, and you think we should wait till a problem arrises. say we did leave that thread and the 4 of them managed to insult another 4 other members who then start arguing and become aggressive, that then leaves the staff with 8 people to deal with. whereas if the staff can forsee this coming as a result of the thread and close it they only have the disgruntled poster to deal with.

in most cases the poster (being mature) would understand why the staff made the decision they made, but in this case the disgruntled poster and three other members decide not to be mature and paid the conciqence for there actions.

i can sort of see where your coming from but us as staff need to think ahead and cant let every thread fly just incase it dosent cause a problem. we cant be expected to keep everyone happy!

[XtremeTornado]

I know but i'm not attacking the staff whether it'll be mods or admins or anyone else, oh can't forget the guide team (sorry guys, nearly did) but just some actions that i've seen them take. Now what happened yesterday or the day before was uncalled for I agree, but to take into context the situation as a whole maybe the "hating" thread could've been seen as lighthearted humour if given the chance but if there was attacks then fine close away until end draws near. All that i'm saying is the reasoning of them doing that affects the site as a whole....

Maybe we've all started today on the wrong side of the bed..... SO WAKE UP ON THE RIGHT SIDE NEXT TIME.... i'm only joking, lol.

On a serious note I love this site and the people on here (not in that way, only the female members, any female members here?).

Ant, no hard feelings mate? We can always butt f**k each other later as a way to make up???? no??? phew thank god.....

In all seriousness now, you guys are in all honesty doing a good job..... in the list department whereas the forums should be ruled with an iron fist.....(no i'm joking) even if I think some things you do are a little controversial. (i'll do this bit in caps to make sure it's clear) AND BY NO MEANS WAS THIS AN ATTACK ON ANY OR ALL OF THE MODS, ADMINS OR ANY OTHER STAFF MEMBERS.

[amplifiedAnt]

Of course no hard feelings, I can see why you'd make a thread like this, just wanted to try to explain the situation as I saw it :)

[marvotwc]

We all realise that that thread was just intended as a joke but surely you must be able to see that it was only a matter of time until things turned bad. A thread about naming members you don't like and why you don't like them was a potential minefield. That's why the staff made the decision to close it. It's much better to prevent bad things from happening rather than dealing with the aftermath.

[the_only_moggy]

Now what happened yesterday or the day before was uncalled for I agree, but to take into context the situation as a whole maybe the "hating" thread could've been seen as lighthearted humour if given the chance but if there was attacks then fine close away until end draws near.

Problem is with that kind of thread the only way you can tell it's going bad if the insult is taken, so by the time you can say "Yeah, this is bad, we need to put a stop to it" not only has at least one member been insulted, but the other members are aware of what happened, take sides, we close the thread and we get the same hassle, cause no matter what we do in that kind of situation, someone isn't going to agree and cause a stink.

The way I see it the staff are here for the members benefit, and we have a duty to the community at large who don't come here to read childish bickering, or watch as some members bully others, they come here to read and talk about games and Trophies, so whenever a thread turns sour like the Hacking issue, or potentially seriously upsetting like hated members, it's best to put a stop to it and move on, mostly for the sake of everyone else here.

And don't get us wrong, I personally love free speech and opinions, I have plenty of crazy ones myself (see this thread for examples (http://www.ps3trophies.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45297)). The users that got banned wern't just banned for what they said, there was some obscene stuff said about other members, petty spamming, and threads created just to troll which are all against our rules which you agree to follow by posting here. We will not ban a user for expressing his opinions aslong as they are expressed respectfully, well written, and don't constutute any kind of bullying or trolling.

[Jaytech]

to me this all sounds like kindergarten. grow up and continué.

...and in case you didn't know:

TEH INTERNETZ = SIRIOUZ BIZNIZ

[Arun.]

When the staff decide to actually take action with a situation it is never a 1 man show, we always communicate with each other to try and help the situation to make sure its dealt with in the best and most efficient manor.

The recent events on this site have I think personally helped us staff work better together.

When we do ban a member of the site, it is never an easy thing to do but we do what we have to do. We don't just take the current situation into consideration, we also take a look at your history.

Believe it or not, the recent events I think has helped me alot with being a Mod, and hopefully others as the situation was not just new to me (who has been a Mod a while now) but to also the new lads aswell :P

[King_Ubu]

I know I probably shouldn't reply, since the issue probably relates to me and when it comes to specifics it's probably not a good idea for me to go into them as it would be unprofessional.

The original thread that was locked, the one about your bottom 5 members, I won't name names because again that is not the right thing to do. I do not believe for a moment that it was set up as a joke, after reporting why to the rest of the staff I think many others saw an additional reason as to why it had to go. Mainly because the topic starter had named one person who he had openly admitted previously that he had problems with, in the course of the night also said that he deserved to be at the bottom of everyones list of hates. That was not going to last, it was quite clear that whilst some users would put people in as a joke, the first post already had a few sly remarks going in.

Why wasn't it all delt with sooner?

Bare in mind the following... Other than me, and Haza (who was on and offline quite a bit), the other other staff were moggy and Arun. Moggy has not been a staffer for very long, but despite this, both of them did everything he could to try and resolve the situation. He was not listened to. So keeping in mind that I was the subject of the conflict, does anyone here seriously believe that anything I said would have mattered to them? Sure, ity would have been so easy for me to slap suspensions on them all and then left it for the rest of the staff to sort out in the morning. Could I have done that, yes. Should I have done that? No. Because theres then the accusation of being power mad or just doing it because it was against me.

The staff who were online at the time logged and recorded just about everything that was done and said so action could be taken. Otherwise come the next day the S mods and Admins would log in and their first questions would be "Why has this happened?" Unless you've got the reasons as to why, your actions will be quickly reversed.

I would also ask that people don't forget that when this happened it was getting on for 3AM in the morning. We were tired, not that many staff were on and those who did attempted to defuse the situation with what power and abilities they had.

I know that many people will be going around trying to get a picture as to exactly what happened, most likely some people are even speaking to those involved trying to find out exactly what happened. But ultimately the final decision is with the admins and the higher level mods, with everything that was logged and everything that occured, including the stuff that some people tried to remove in the course of the night, the recommendations of those who were online at the time have not been overtuned.


EDIT: Remember I did bring up 2 issues so feel free to express away on both

The hacking issue.

Imagine you were on the staff team right now, someone says that their friend has been hacking a game to get trophies. How do you prove this?

The most obvious solution... look at their trophy list and see if theres any odd time marks. Whilst that may work, with all the problems that the PSN has, especially when it comes to trophy sync. Whilst I could name MW2 and Socom as potential candidates that would have this problem (maybe Buzz too). Don't forget, it's not uncommon for sometimes trophies you've unlocked previously just randomly unlocking on their own, back when mercs 2 was released, it had tons of issues with random trophies popping up and random trophy time marks.

Then theres the issue as to how quickly some people get a platinum/specific trophy. Don't forget that just because a game has a release date, doesn't mean people can't get it sometimes a month before hand. Look at Bayonetta and Final Fantasy 13, both managed to get out early. Now imagine that was a game which involves a huge level up system or has a task completion system. If someone gets that trophy correctly, or amazingly early due to an early release... how do you prove/disprove that?

Then there are trophy hacks out there for single individual trophies, I can think of games like FIFA which had a number of hacks for individual trophies, but none that would unlock all at once... How do you prove that one? It would look like a genuine trophy gain by all rights.

The only other way I can think of to prove it... become a tech support officer at Sony and be given the passwords/rights to look at peoples PSN accounts and check each line of data to see if anything was added via a change on behalf of the user.

But we staff cannot do that.

If you want my personal opinion on people who hack trophies... I don't see any point in doing this, for me, it would feel like a waste, why pay for a game and then not play it? Especially if it was something like MW2's covert op hack. But with that said, I do not believe that people who have done it should be constantly bugged for doing it.

I hope thats answered a few things... wow... I went on a bit didn't I?

[L_ha]

This is all i have to say. Take it away boys!

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:bigcry: :D

[tuuttuut1]

This is all i have to say. Take it away boys!



:bigcry: :D

Should have been Cry me a river. -1 trollfail.

[L_ha]

Should have been Cry me a river. -1 trollfail.

Naa i disagree. Cry Me a rive isnt relevant here.
Take that go straight to the heart! :shocked2:

[the_only_moggy]

Naa i disagree. Cry Me a rive isnt relevant here.
Take that go straight to the heart! :shocked2:

Always good when 11 year old girls add something intelligent and relevant to the discussion.

Seriously though I'm sure you'll see the special people who inspire these new and exciting feelings in a few weeks when the temp ban expires and they act like adults.

[DjDhiraj1]

i thought the ban was permanent and not temporary?

[Arun.]

i thought the ban was permanent and not temporary?

No further detail :P

You shall have to see what happens in a month's time.

[L_ha]

Always good when 11 year old girls add something intelligent and relevant to the discussion.

Seriously though I'm sure you'll see the special people who inspire these new and exciting feelings in a few weeks when the temp ban expires and they act like adults.

Wow wheres the 11 year old girls just in my age range!.. lol

On my own serious note. I dont really know what happened but obviously was offensive but still im sure it was just banter.
Banter FTW!

[the_only_moggy]

Wow wheres the 11 year old girls just in my age range!.. lol

On my own serious note. I dont really know what happened but obviously was offensive but still im sure it was just banter.
Banter FTW!

TBH if you don't know what was said, you don't know how offensive it was, we wouldn't Ban someone for Banter, because banter is a win, in fact it's what this site is here for, and banter is ruined by offensive drivel.

[L_ha]

TBH if you don't know what was said, you don't know how offensive it was, we wouldn't Ban someone for Banter, because banter is a win, in fact it's what this site is here for, and banter is ruined by offensive drivel.

Ok banter taken to far then. I dunno so i should really not post again.

[Residentzombie]

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

This can be said of moderators on a forum, taking their power too literally or a government which grants more power for those in it and less freedom for the people living within it.

I guess the question comes to, "Who will monitor the moderators and then who would monitor them?"

[lodgio]

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

This can be said of moderators on a forum, taking their power too literally or a government which grants more power for those in it and less freedom for the people living within it.

I guess the question comes to, "Who will monitor the moderators and then who would monitor them?"

Hmmm what a needless response to an old thread