People of Today

[stringa93]

After watching my best friend get mugged today, and being too scared to get involved, i might add, i'm left pondering several questions.

First of all, what drives a person to do something so selfish, hurtful and down right stupid as mug someone? Other than getting the thing they want at that time, what do they actually achieve? When you think about it, although a phone might seem nice and you want to have it because of it's material value, a phone holds no real VALUE. In life, what's REALLY valuable is health, happiness, friends and family, surely?

It particularly shocked me that as he was mugged one of these ******** went so far as to kick my friend IN THE HEAD. Fortunately he seemed ok, was able to walk and talk and minus a few bumps and bruises, but why would anybody risk giving someone permanent brain damage for a phone?

Second, have people, including myself, fallen into some sort of 'hierarchy' (for lack of a better word) that means they are too afraid to get involved in a situation that, had it happened 50 years ago, would have lead to all witnesses and pedestrians pursuing the criminal? The way i perceive this whole situation is that there are people who are targeted because of factors including age, wealth and intelligence, then there are people in place to protect those 'below' them, and then, above all others, there are the people who do these crimes and who look down and laugh at the people below them (the targets and the protectors).

Finally, does the criminal justice system really have any impact? For example, my friend and i rang the police who went through the motions of taking statements and asking for descriptions aswell as contacting Samsung to have the phone's International Mobile Equipment Identity number blocked (the phone is now as useful as a house brick) but i'm really doubtful as to what they will actually achieve in terms of catching them.

I know there's a lot to think about here, and i'll probably get told by a mod it's too much for one thread, but it's been on my mind since it happened (only 4 hours ago) and probably will be for a long time to come.

[NB]

sorry to hear about that it happened to a friend of mine recently too. I think there is just a lack of law inforcement really to stop it and even if they are caught its usually just a warning or something there needs to be more forceful rules about crimes.

[stringa93]

To be honest i like the thing i heard about in an asian country, i've forgotten which, where they cut off the right hand if you steal something. Problem is would any one ever get caught? All that happens if punishment gets worse is criminals get craftier.

Also, sorry to hear that it happened to some one you know, watching it was un-nerving enough so i can't imagine how much worse it is to have it actually happen to you.

[M-47]

unlucky about your mate why did you help your mate out was it just one mugger?

[Laika]

On the contrary, this is absolutely perfect for this forum.

It's fear, the lack of getting involved part. All these stories we hear in the media about people being killed for their physical possessions (some incredibly minor), even though this is the absolute minority of cases that fear sticks with us. Best demonstrated when walking down a high street, recently I've noticed that when a group of even remotely threatening looking people walk past us, not only do we not make eye contact but our conversation stops in its entirety. Are we in such dire straits that we can't have regular conversation without having the fear of being almost punished?

The sad truth is that our law enforcement isn't taken seriously in the UK, in some ways they're almost virtually powerless against criminals. However, if guns for mandatory for your run-of-the-mill constable, how many more cases ofJean Charles de Menezes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes), remembering this happened with trained professionals.

I can't even begin to lend a reason or comfort to the mugging, I'll be the first to admit I live a fairly middle-class cotton-woolled existence, heck I'm the most deviant person in my village. All I know is to keep myself to myself when gangs are around. I take it the attack was entirely unprovoked?

[Nirvlime]

That's a shame, man. I didn't know people still stole phones - considering who quickly you can shut them down.

Although, I admit. I'd be pretty pissed if I got mugged by some guy and my friend didn't help me. Not that you needed that on your plate, but really... I wasn't there but had you done something you might have caused enough of a distraction to get away. Or at least had a closer bond with your friend.

That's interesting though. If this is in fact a more common thing... could it be the surge of censorship on violence and profanity that led to this fear to get into a little scuffle? Kids use to fight all the time with minor penalties - now you get sent to special schools and juvenile detention centers and such.

[Laika]

That's interesting though. If this is in fact a more common thing... could it be the surge of censorship on violence and profanity that led to this fear to get into a little scuffle? Kids use to fight all the time with minor penalties - now you get sent to special schools and juvenile detention centers and such.

You're saying stricter punishments for assault cause people to be scared of being beaten the shit out of?

Erm...

[stringa93]

@ Nirvlime: i'm not the sort of person who goes outside much. I can't fight at all and am about as threatening as Elmo, and i got enough shit about it at school. Sad thing is, he is my best friend and it made me wonder how i'd respond if it was my family involved. Kind of an eye opener for me.

What you might not believe is that i've been suspended from school twice for fighting. I use to have a short temper but now i'm older and it's just gone.

@ Laika: Yes, it was entirely unprovoked. Also, i can relate to your example of walking down the high street and stopping a conversation; many times i've stopped what i'm saying and looked at the floor when i'm out. I just feel sad to think people such as myself haven't got the nerve to talk in front of other for fear of ridicule or worse.

[Transcendence]

People looking down on materialistic lifestyles are wrong to do so. Happiness is entirely subjective and even friends and family do not necessarily mean happiness and this is entirely decided by society and not objective in any way.

What I'm trying to say is that some people don't think the way you do and that no-one has the right to say their way of thinking is ever the right way. People who don't adhere to some of societies' ways and have the correct mindset about it eg. not just to show off or some synthetic and fake reason like that are okay to do so in my opinion.

Maybe the guy who robbed your friend is a well mannered guy but likes to get the rush of beating someone up and feels fully justified and not guilty knowing that your friend will be fine and will walk away with having lost a valuable item to him but an experience that will leave a mark on his personality forever and thinks that he is doing him good.

Maybe this preposterous hypothesis is correct, no?

Sorry if it's a bit farfetched it's 3 o'clock.

[stringa93]

People looking down on materialistic lifestyles are wrong to do so. Happiness is entirely subjective and even friends and family do not necessarily mean happiness and this is entirely decided by society and not objective in any way.

What I'm trying to say is that some people don't think the way you do and that no-one has the right to say their way of thinking is ever the right way. People who don't adhere to some of societies' ways and have the correct mindset about it eg. not just to show off or some synthetic and fake reason like that are okay to do so in my opinion.

Maybe the guy who robbed your friend is a well mannered guy but likes to get the rush of beating someone up and feels fully justified and not guilty knowing that your friend will be fine and will walk away with having lost a valuable item to him but an experience that will leave a mark on his personality forever and thinks that he is doing him good.

Maybe this preposterous hypothesis is correct, no?

Sorry if it's a bit farfetched it's 3 o'clock.

That is a tiny bit farfetched in my opinion. Not to say it's wrong, but i find it highly unlikely.

I can't imagine anyone would see a mugging as doing another person some good because there are zero positives of muggings that spring to mind. Often people who are victims of these crimes can become scared to continue parts of their daily life because they think these things will happen again, that people are out to get them and such, but that depends on their mental stability i suppose.

I accept that many people don't think my way, everyone has a different set of opinions and beliefs which they are entitled to, but i also believe that there are more acceptable beliefs than others. If someone of power and importance were to share the beliefs of Hitler, there would be huge anger and out cry by the public.

To believe mugging people to do them good is acceptable would probably not go down well with alot of people in the public.

Also, i wasn't trying to look down on people who have materialistic lifestyles, as i myself live quite a materialistic lifestyle (if you've seen my gaming set up, you'd know) but i was just trying to suggest that there comes a point where an item of material value is worthless when other things, like life, are on the line. I probably went about wording it completely wrong.

:undecided: Don't know if that was very clear but do you see what i'm trying to say?

[Scowie]

I am more shocked at the fact that you just stood there and watched this happen. :O

[stringa93]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it comes back to this again.

Not being funny Scowie but i had enough of that at school, there's not a lot you can do when you're scared s**tless.

I didn't know what to do, what was going to happen, or anything, give me a break, alright?

Come to think of it, i'd like to see how the people who pointed that out and others who mocked me for it would hold up in that situation.

I came on here to discuss, not to have people focus on the fact i didn't get involved. Move on.

[CraigyBL2]

I can generally associate with you here man and I do feel bad for you aswell as your friend. There is always going to be comments like "oh you didn't stick up for your friend bla bla" but what people forget is this is a PS3 site not a macho men convention, most of us don't leave our television sets for hours on end, what sort of a chance do we have against the well trained youth who commit these kind of actions? Don't let people get you down, end of the day most would have done the same as you and in all fairness I'm not sure I would have had the courage to do make a stand against someone who could have knocked the aboslute crap out of me, swiftly moving on. I don't know what motivates people today but bringing philosophical ideas to the table, were just survival machines built on the mechanics of society. What to you may seem a heartless person stealing and causing pain is likely someone who knows no better due to the substantial levels of pain and hurt they've felt in their own life. We can be quick to judge a situation but in reality these kind of occurances will continue because were a community made up of so many different cultural and racial balances, different lifestlyes are striving to come into play and if that be through stealing and abuse we have to deal with it the best way we can and hope that the law enforcement system can come through for us, we can all dream right?

[Scowie]

Well if people did stand up for them selves may be they would stop getting mugged.

[CraigyBL2]

Well if people did stand up for them selves may be they would stop getting mugged.

Or get stabbed. Hey! let's all become human pin cushions for the fun of it, aye?

[L_ha]

People these days are just scum. gets on my nerves seriously, cant you go out and earn the right to buy it like everyone else does.
Everyone that is saying they would have done something is just Bull**** in situations like that your mind just goes into panic you cant tell what you would do until you are in the position yourself.

Hahaha craig u make em out to be a bloody army. lol
"what sort of a chance do we have against the well trained youth who commit these kind of actions?"

They just stupid 'gangstaa' kids. Half of em are more scared than you are.

[CraigyBL2]

People these days are just scum. gets on my nerves seriously, cant you go out and earn the right to buy it like everyone else does.
Everyone that is saying they would have done something is just Bull**** in situations like that your mind just goes into panic you cant tell what you would do until you are in the position yourself.

Hahaha craig u make em out to be a bloody army. lol
"what sort of a chance do we have against the well trained youth who commit these kind of actions?"

They just stupid 'gangstaa' kids. Half of em are more scared than you are.

I've seen the training sites, Harry. No, I'm joking but you know what I mean man lol.

[Laika]

I can generally associate with you here man and I do feel bad for you aswell as your friend. There is always going to be comments like "oh you didn't stick up for your friend bla bla" but what people forget is this is a PS3 site not a macho men convention, most of us don't leave our television sets for hours on end, what sort of a chance do we have against the well trained youth who commit these kind of actions? Don't let people get you down, end of the day most would have done the same as you and in all fairness I'm not sure I would have had the courage to do make a stand against someone who could have knocked the aboslute crap out of me, swiftly moving on. I don't know what motivates people today but bringing philosophical ideas to the table, were just survival machines built on the mechanics of society. What to you may seem a heartless person stealing and causing pain is likely someone who knows no better due to the substantial levels of pain and hurt they've felt in their own life. We can be quick to judge a situation but in reality these kind of occurances will continue because were a community made up of so many different cultural and racial balances, different lifestlyes are striving to come into play and if that be through stealing and abuse we have to deal with it the best way we can and hope that the law enforcement system can come through for us, we can all dream right?

On a less serious note I'm fairly sure I can take on my fair share of guys, even if it is through the medium of a Rugby tackle.

[CraigyBL2]

On a less serious note I'm fairly sure I can take on my fair share of guys, even if it is through the medium of a Rugby tackle.

Don't forget the witty language and the stunning good looks, or is that just me?

[Transcendence]

I can't imagine anyone would see a mugging as doing another person some good because there are zero positives of muggings that spring to mind. Often people who are victims of these crimes can become scared to continue parts of their daily life because they think these things will happen again, that people are out to get them and such, but that depends on their mental stability i suppose.

I accept that many people don't think my way, everyone has a different set of opinions and beliefs which they are entitled to, but i also believe that there are more acceptable beliefs than others. If someone of power and importance were to share the beliefs of Hitler, there would be huge anger and out cry by the public.

To believe mugging people to do them good is acceptable would probably not go down well with alot of people in the public.

Also, i wasn't trying to look down on people who have materialistic lifestyles, as i myself live quite a materialistic lifestyle (if you've seen my gaming set up, you'd know) but i was just trying to suggest that there comes a point where an item of material value is worthless when other things, like life, are on the line. I probably went about wording it completely wrong.

:undecided: Don't know if that was very clear but do you see what i'm trying to say?

I do see what you're trying to say.

The phrases i highlighted implied ways of thinking that i was trying to discourage in my previous post. E.g. there is no objective morality. Political ideas aren't a the part I'm trying to get to either. I'm talking about low level crime and felonies that are for personal gain. Sure the extremes like the Nazi regime does have some part of the whole morality thing but the morals behind that may not have been entirely honest and even Hitler's motives were unclear. He was supposedly psychotic but also did it for personal gain which aren't the motives i was trying to address.

All the ones i highlighted in red i count as invalid to the whole idea.

Sorry if it's a bit off the treaded path but i want to see where this point goes.

Don't fuck with Craigy or he will fuck you. You see the full stop after you? Just checking.

[Dropeti]

Well if people did stand up for them selves may be they would stop getting mugged.

OK, this is completely off topic but,

Mr Scowie...

I've seen you in this website for a couple of months now, and while you have your right to be such a deuch bag, I think you should just shut up a bit more...

Honestly guys, (mods and such), you can freakin BAN me if you want to for this, but after months reading this guy's posts I've measured the risks and I must say that being banned from here is totally worth it if I get banned while telling this guy to shut up..

You never EVER, EVER, EVER give comments that improves and/or adds ANYTHING to the discussion, as far as Im aware you just open your mouth (or type stuff, for that matter) to be a complete DICK

To me you look like one of those teenage boys who just found out they can make up a nickname on the internet and just start being a dick wherever you go, after all, you're not showing your face to anyone (face which I would gladly sucker punch with no regrets :))

I could say more but I think thats enough, you're a DEUCHE... And oh god if I only knew english like I know portuguese so I could curse you more properly... :undecided:

Mods, feel free to ban me or something if you feel like, but I just HAD to say that... :mellow:

[Scowie]

OK, this is completely off topic but,

Mr Scowie...

I've seen you in this website for a couple of months now, and while you have your right to be such a deuch bag, I think you should just shut up a bit more...

Honestly guys, (mods and such), you can freakin BAN me if you want to for this, but after months reading this guy's posts I've measured the risks and I must say that being banned from here is totally worth it if I get banned while telling this guy to shut up..

You never EVER, EVER, EVER give comments that improves and/or adds ANYTHING to the discussion, as far as Im aware you just open your mouth (or type stuff, for that matter) to be a complete DICK

To me you look like one of those teenage boys who just found out they can make up a nickname on the internet and just start being a dick wherever you go, after all, you're not showing your face to anyone (face which I would gladly sucker punch with no regrets :))

I could say more but I think thats enough, you're a DEUCHE... And oh god if I only knew english like I know portuguese so I could curse you more properly... :undecided:

Mods, feel free to ban me or something if you feel like, but I just HAD to say that... :mellow:

Nice ;)

[Dropeti]

Nice ;)

Way to go champ! :crown:

[CraigyBL2]

I smell pwnage pie.

[LSL]

that was any absolute essay

http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/loudspeakerlucas.png (http://eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/loudspeakerlucas/)

[Yamaharu243]

First of all that essay was made of win, nuff said.

anywho, people of today are wankers, true enough. If someone isnt making someone elses life miserable, they're making they're own life miserable, then they run off and bitch about it.

Who's up for a chav/Gang genocide people? XD

[Scowie]

I was just saying if i was that guy thats what i would have done.

[Laika]

First of all, kudos to you :P

Second of all: Scowie, I happen to be a master of detecting bullshit and YOU SIR are a of the highest order. Please contribute more in future rather than being a bit of a dick about it.

However bear in mind the best way to go about getting another member warned or something is to go on about it, granted I understand that insane amounts of idiocy can lead you to rage (see: above) but it more than often spirals into a flame war that gets both parties banned.

[Scowie]

So i am not allowed to say what i think. I thought this was what he put this thread up for ?

[Laika]

As far as I'm concerned a large proportion of your 'comments' aren't thoughts, they're merely whatever happens to flop out of your mouth at that moment in time.

Keep this thread on topic or it'll be closed.

[stringa93]

I do see what you're trying to say.

The phrases i highlighted implied ways of thinking that i was trying to discourage in my previous post. E.g. there is no objective morality. Political ideas aren't a the part I'm trying to get to either. I'm talking about low level crime and felonies that are for personal gain. Sure the extremes like the Nazi regime does have some part of the whole morality thing but the morals behind that may not have been entirely honest and even Hitler's motives were unclear. He was supposedly psychotic but also did it for personal gain which aren't the motives i was trying to address.

All the ones i highlighted in red i count as invalid to the whole idea.

Sorry if it's a bit off the treaded path but i want to see where this point goes.

Don't fuck with Craigy or he will fuck you. You see the full stop after you? Just checking.

I'm not quite sure i understand what objective morality is and i've been racking my brains trying to understand your argument (English isn't a strong point of mine particularly).

I'll try to answer based on the web-definition i found,

"To say that morality is "objective" is to say that notions of "right" and "wrong" are universal and fixed for all times. What are "right" and "wrong" today will be that way for all times and all cultures."

So, to say that morality is not a constant, you're saying that what's wrong to me is not wrong to the mugger? (I think i get it now :D)

If someone were to commit murder because they didn't like the person and thought they were right to kill them how could any law enforcement or justice system possibly deal with the situation? One groups beliefs would be the antithesis of the other and nothing would get done as there is no fixed sense of right and wrong.

Without some sense of what is right and what is wrong, then surely we would have anarchy? Lots of things just couldn't function without objective morality, like a justice system. Anyone who believed they were right in their own mind would be able to do what they want because there would be disagreement on the morality what they had done.

Now i follow your point a bit better, i disagree that if people were to have the correct mindset for these situations it would be okay.

However, if there was no idea of good/bad and people went about the situation the right way then, hypothetically, there could be some sort of balance in society?

I say this because people often feel the need to break the law in order to be different or for some sort of recognition, but if law didn't exist then people may find some sort of equilibrium. People would live simpler, less material lives because of what others would do, and equally, 'criminals' would be people who almost maintained equality.

Of course, being realistic, all that would happen is people would live the same day-to-day lives and a 'criminal' would just be some sort of vigilante.

This hypothesis actually brings to mind the whole idea of Communism; everyone is equal, but some people are "more equal" than others.

:shocked2: Wow! Transcendence, your post's have had me spend the last hour and fifteen minutes articulating my argument.

Now that i've been thinking for a while, i wonder what other people think of this idea of no objective morality. What do others want to add to this?

[Yamaharu243]

what do i want added to this?

Someone to declare when criminal/bad person hunting season is open o.o

[Laika]

Morality is entirely subjective and to say otherwise is to argue that all societies, ever, have treated everything in exactly the same manner; doing so is not only fallacious, it's utterly utterly wrong.

See: abortion debate.
See: stem cell debate
See: The entire moral spectrum.

Nothing is black and white, regardless of what every morality-based game ever tells you (okay, there may be a couple of exceptions) it's all shades of grey, when you get down to it.

[BenMessie1981]

Sorry pal, but if one of my friends was getting mugged there is no way in hell I would stand and watch. Even if the guy was 6 foot and build like a brick, you should have at least tried to stop him. Even if it meant taking a kicking yourself. I'm sorry, this will probably upset a few people but its my opinion. In my eyes you are no friend to him.

[BenMessie1981]

[QUOTE=stringa93;198923]Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it comes back to this again.

Not being funny Scowie but i had enough of that at school, there's not a lot you can do when you're scared s**tless.

I didn't know what to do, what was going to happen, or anything, give me a break, alright?

That completely depends on who you are,
Answer this my good man, if you could turn back the clock, would you jump in to help, or would you stand and watch again??

Imagine if that kick in the head had seriously injured your bestfriend?? You probably would never forgive yourself.
Muggings and attacks will always happen, its only what YOU do that matters when put in a certain situation. Some people attack when they are scared sh++less, some people don't and I accept that. You say you've had enough grief at school about it so your still young, put it down to life expirience. But trust me man don't let people walk all over you, or your friends. You have to stick up for yourself because no one else will and I'm sure this expirience has taught you that. I've known my best friend Jim for 26 years and I know I can always count on him even if there were 3 or 4 people attacking me I know for a fact he would jump in, that is a true best friend.

[CraigyBL2]

[QUOTE=stringa93;198923]Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it comes back to this again.

Not being funny Scowie but i had enough of that at school, there's not a lot you can do when you're scared s**tless.

I didn't know what to do, what was going to happen, or anything, give me a break, alright?

That completely depends on who you are,
Answer this my good man, if you could turn back the clock, would you jump in to help, or would you stand and watch again??

Imagine if that kick in the head had seriously injured your bestfriend?? You probably would never forgive yourself.
Muggings and attacks will always happen, its only what YOU do that matters when put in a certain situation. Some people attack when they are scared sh++less, some people don't and I accept that. You say you've had enough grief at school about it so your still young, put it down to life expirience. But trust me man don't let people walk all over you, or your friends. You have to stick up for yourself because no one else will and I'm sure this expirience has taught you that. I've known my best friend Jim for 26 years and I know I can always count on him even if there were 3 or 4 people attacking me I know for a fact he would jump in, that is a true best friend.

I don't think bringing this back up is entirely necessary. The argument has taken a new turn now and as Laika and the OP have stated were talking about morality. If this keeps coming up I'm sure the post will eventually be locked so spare everyone the shit and stop bringing this up, he didn't .. can't now and whatever he feels was right, wrong or justified is quite frankly .. none of your business.

[BenMessie1981]

@Craigy
Well apologies for bringing it back up. I didn't realise I was because I read the first post and then replied straight away without reading anymore. And frankly yes I know its none of my business but its none of anyones business is it. He told us his story and I expressed my opinion on the matter, just like everyone else has.

[CraigyBL2]

@Craigy
Well apologies for bringing it back up. I didn't realise I was because I read the first post and then replied straight away without reading anymore. And frankly yes I know its none of my business but its none of anyones business is it. He told us his story and I expressed my opinion on the matter, just like everyone else has.

I totally agree with you but I also humbly disagree with your initial post. Basically yes, we are all entitled to our own free will and freedom of speech and the fact that you chose not to read through these pages of comments is also a matter of your own personal preference. However, those who have read all the comments can see that the poor lad has copped a load of crap at school and his now his own personal comfort zone and chilling out zone of PS3T is feeding him crap too. I believe in emotivism and I think it's a bit harsh for Stringa to be judged in such ways when many, including myself would have probably frozen up and done the exact same thing. It's very well to make rash statement on a forum but this is real life and not just some sort of virtual reality where people can do the things they say they are going to do. How many people have probably said "Oh I'm going to ask her out tomorrow" and then once seen her, totally chickened out due to fear of rejection and embarassment ... and in the same context fear of harm is a lot higher up the ladder of feelings so I'm sure Stringa is not alone. By the way Ben, this is not a personal attack at you but rather me trying to weigh up the debate and moralities of the situation.

[Nirvlime]

You're saying stricter punishments for assault cause people to be scared of being beaten the shit out of?

Erm...

Sorry, I don't get on here enough to keep up to date but you completely twisted my words around. Either that or you just honestly didn't comprehend what I wrote.

What I meant was that since kids are less likely to get in little scuffles (I'd hardly call them fights) when they're younger because they will now immediately get in severe trouble at school - when they're older if they get in a position to be physical they'll shy away from it because they have no previous experience with it. I was just wondering if anyone thought that would be a possibility.

And since I was under the assumption that only one person mugged his friend, 2 on 1 would be pretty good odds. Between the both of them I highly doubt they both would've gotten their shit beaten. The guy might have still got away but I don't think he would've stuck around long enough to cause any real damage. I wasn't there though of course.

I'm not trying to give him shit for not stepping in though. I thought part of the discussion was to discuss why people of today are too scared to get involved with such things - maybe I need to reread what he wrote.

[JohnnyV]

People have a selfish nature pure and simple. For some this means that they're just selfish enough to get by just living. For others, it means harming others to obtain something they want, or likely think they need. It was awful what happened, and hopefully the mugger gets caught. Unfortunately something like a mugging is hard to combat, unless someone who witnessed it actually knows who the guy is.

As for how you reacted, I'm not going to judge. I've never had to go through the experience so I have no idea how I'd handle it. I'd like to think that I would help my friend, but can't say for sure.

Just like anything traumatic that happens in our life, time heals all.

[stringa93]

Morality is entirely subjective and to say otherwise is to argue that all societies, ever, have treated everything in exactly the same manner; doing so is not only fallacious, it's utterly utterly wrong.

See: abortion debate.
See: stem cell debate
See: The entire moral spectrum.

Nothing is black and white, regardless of what every morality-based game ever tells you (okay, there may be a couple of exceptions) it's all shades of grey, when you get down to it.

Hasn't the idea of basic right and wrong always been the same though? If we look at this from a religious stand point, the idea of right and wrong has been defined since Moses was alive (which i think was before Jesus). Many societies are based on the Christian ethos which, at least to me, suggests that societies have treated things the same. Anyone else agree?



And since I was under the assumption that only one person mugged his friend, 2 on 1 would be pretty good odds.

There were 3 of them, all were clearly older and bigger aswell. Just thought i'd clear that up.

Also, thanks Craigy for your input, mate. It's fair to say you're probably one of the most level headed people who've spoken about this. Quite a few of my own friends got on their high horses while some people are still being down right awful about it. (Y)